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tooanalytical


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xx D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Thread started on: Jul 8th, 2017, 12:42am »

NO ERROR LOG TO SHOW! The most recent error log found for v4.04 and v4.5.0 of Liberty BASICs are from year 2014. BUt the Data Execution Prevention on Windows Vista laptop is stopping Liberty BASIC from running TODAY. Window message says see error.log, but none from today are found. The error.log files are from year 2014.

I'm lost. Maybe problem from a use of AdwCleaner (a well recommended product). Maybe because of some thing peculiar about the 9-year-old computer being old.

This DEP problem and program being stopped is also hitting Just BASIC.

Other programs on the computer work without trouble. Just JB and the two LB's do not allow to run.
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Rod
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops LB from running
« Reply #1 on: Jul 8th, 2017, 02:14am »

Which version of Liberty are you trying to run? In any event the solution is to put hardware dep to the windows default setting.
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops LB from running
« Reply #2 on: Jul 8th, 2017, 03:05am »

on Jul 8th, 2017, 02:14am, Rod wrote:
Which version of Liberty are you trying to run? In any event the solution is to put hardware dep to the windows default setting.


On Windows Vista, sp2, 32-bit;
Liberty BASIC's version 4.04 AND version 4.5.0.

This D.E.P. stoppage has been sudden; recent; only today. Never had such problems before with running JB, or LB, so not really sure yet if excluding them from Data Execution Prevention is a good idea or not. Change in how DEP works now?
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops LB from running
« Reply #3 on: Jul 8th, 2017, 03:14am »

on Jul 8th, 2017, 02:14am, Rod wrote:
Which version of Liberty are you trying to run? In any event the solution is to put hardware dep to the windows default setting.

What you say in the second part is not too clear. DEP is set (or was set) to exclude essential windows programs and services.

ONE change been made, but UNRELATED to LB and JB; that being, now set to "Turn on DEP for all programs and services except those I select".


Maybe I found my problem? I'll have to change DEP back to
Turn on DEP for Essential windows services only.

I made the change to exclude two files for an Office Suite program. Since then is when I find DEP stopping JB and LB. The DEP exclusions were made about a week ago!

Hopefully your advice will fix this... (later to tell)
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #4 on: Jul 8th, 2017, 03:27am »

Rod, what you expressed, Turn on DEP for essential Windows Services and Programs Only, did work. Great effective advice
« Last Edit: Jul 8th, 2017, 03:29am by tooanalytical » User IP Logged

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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #5 on: Jul 8th, 2017, 03:30am »

The default setting is on for essential windows services. That protects the core of your machine and is all that most folks need because they have other protections and virus checkers.

For PC's in insecure environments like public mals that are running dedicated applications then DEP should be on for all programs. Typically the application they want to run will be listed in the permitted apps pane.

So you either have it on and list all your programs in the permitted apps pane or you set it to the default setting of on for essential services only.

That default setting is perfectly adequate for a home computer.
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #6 on: Jul 8th, 2017, 09:24am »

On thing that really bugs me is that Windows doesn't mention that it is DEP that causes an application to stop. It really should explain why the program stops running instead of reporting a generic protection fault.

-Carl
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #7 on: Jul 8th, 2017, 1:11pm »

on Jul 8th, 2017, 09:24am, CarlGundel wrote:
On thing that really bugs me is that Windows doesn't mention that it is DEP that causes an application to stop. It really should explain why the program stops running instead of reporting a generic protection fault.

-Carl

D.E.P. often stopped an alternative Office Suite program from running, so I finally made the DEP Exclusions for them afew days ago. That means, turned ON DEP for all programs & services EXCEPT the programs for the office programs. That way, DEP, as I soon found, was not allowed to run (but nearly all other programs were still allowed and did run).

Now that DEP is set back to the default ON for essentials only, the ADDED items for the office programs are removed from the exclusion and I imagine that the office programs not be permitted, but JB and LB now run with no problem.

Sometime somewhere, all Windows users need to be trained how to operate in Windows, including how to deal with and understand Data Exec. Prevention, how to install programs, how to use zip and unzip tools, and other things. Computer literacy should be more than just, "this is how you turn on and off the computer, and how to use word processor and email/webmail...
« Last Edit: Jul 8th, 2017, 1:14pm by tooanalytical » User IP Logged

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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #8 on: Jul 8th, 2017, 1:31pm »

I think the solution is for Microsoft to make such things as DEP either trivially easy to deal with, or to eliminate them.

-Carl
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #9 on: Jul 9th, 2017, 10:02pm »

If you enable DEP for Windows essential programs and services only, there is no exclusion list needed, since there is nothing to exclude.
The office suite files are no essential Windows files, so they are automatically excluded from DEP checking.
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #10 on: Jul 9th, 2017, 11:07pm »

on Jul 9th, 2017, 10:02pm, Stefan Pendl wrote:
If you enable DEP for Windows essential programs and services only, there is no exclusion list needed, since there is nothing to exclude.
The office suite files are no essential Windows files, so they are automatically excluded from DEP checking.


The original problem was the opposite of that. Withe the normal Turn on DEP for Essential Programs & Services Only, DEP stopped the office alternative programs. That is why I finally made the DEP setting change. Everything was nice - until I tried to run Just BASIC, and then Liberty BASIC. Now, DEP would stop THEM from running.

THe best solution is to put DEP back the way it was - On for essentials only, so that JB and LB will work. The alternative office programs are not usually necessary on that machine. At least now I know what to do (with DEP settings) in case I want to use the alternative office program.

Also, I could turn DEP on for ALL programs and services and setup exclusions for JB, LB, and the two necessary programs from the Office programs. This way, these four and M.S. programsand services should work - until I find some other program which DEP may stop.
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #11 on: Jul 14th, 2017, 4:58pm »

on Jul 8th, 2017, 1:31pm, CarlGundel wrote:
I think the solution is for Microsoft to make such things as DEP either trivially easy to deal with, or to eliminate them.

-Carl


Unfortunately, "trivially easy" in this case would mean "less secure". Windows already defaults to a less secure state for this very reason: too many things are still hanging around that play games with memory manipulation, and then execute the modified memory.

Windows XP added flags to the VirtualProtect() function to modify the executable state of memory back in 2004 with SP2, it's been 13 years since then, and the answer is still "don't use DEP". undecided


As for Microsoft making it clear that DEP is the trigger on an issue, I'm not certain that it can. When DEP is enabled, the memory protection happens in the processor hardware itself, not as part of the OS. The OS might just get a generic exception from the processor when DEP is violated. In that case, the only thing it can do is terminate the process.
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #12 on: Jul 14th, 2017, 5:18pm »

If DEP were at least mentioned in the popup error for a protection fault, and to provide a a link to a help file to walk the user through the basics, that would be a big win. Also, when the user is about to change DEP settings, the operating system could inform the user about the nature of the change and how it would affect things. These things are easy to implement, and it's just silly that the user is left in a lurch.

-Carl
on Jul 14th, 2017, 4:58pm, Chris Iverson wrote:
Unfortunately, "trivially easy" in this case would mean "less secure". Windows already defaults to a less secure state for this very reason: too many things are still hanging around that play games with memory manipulation, and then execute the modified memory.

Windows XP added flags to the VirtualProtect() function to modify the executable state of memory back in 2004 with SP2, it's been 13 years since then, and the answer is still "don't use DEP". undecided


As for Microsoft making it clear that DEP is the trigger on an issue, I'm not certain that it can. When DEP is enabled, the memory protection happens in the processor hardware itself, not as part of the OS. The OS might just get a generic exception from the processor when DEP is violated. In that case, the only thing it can do is terminate the process.
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #13 on: Jul 14th, 2017, 7:52pm »

I'll agree to a bigger warning needed about DEP when turning it on, basically warning that, if anything breaks, to check DEP first.


A DEP warning on a protection violation I'm not certain would help much, though. Yes, it would help in cases where it's caused by DEP, but there's a million other things that can cause protection violations, none of which at all related to DEP. Popping up bad/wrong information can be worse than popping up no information; then you send the user on a useless wild goose chase.


It may be better nowadays, at least, when most protection faults are absorbed and handled by the OS(since they usually occur in things happening at low levels), but "Protection violation" is the most common error message I see in LB(mainly because I'm always experimenting with API calls, but still. I've seen the error hundreds of times, never related to DEP. Sometimes I wasn't sure what caused it since it wouldn't happen right away.)

I suppose hints toward it wouldn't hurt, but then you need a way to pass that hint through to every single program running that handles exceptions. The protection violation error being shown in this case isn't being displayed by Windows; it's being displayed by the Smalltalk engine, which means, even if the Windows default error message for protection errors DID include the hint about DEP, it wouldn't change anything in this case, because the Smalltalk engine is catching the exception and re-throwing it.
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xx Re: D.E.P. stops all of JB and LB from running
« Reply #14 on: Jul 15th, 2017, 02:12am »

on Jul 14th, 2017, 4:58pm, Chris Iverson wrote:
Unfortunately, "trivially easy" in this case would mean "less secure". Windows already defaults to a less secure state for this very reason: too many things are still hanging around that play games with memory manipulation, and then execute the modified memory.

Windows XP added flags to the VirtualProtect() function to modify the executable state of memory back in 2004 with SP2, it's been 13 years since then, and the answer is still "don't use DEP". undecided


As for Microsoft making it clear that DEP is the trigger on an issue, I'm not certain that it can. When DEP is enabled, the memory protection happens in the processor hardware itself, not as part of the OS. The OS might just get a generic exception from the processor when DEP is violated. In that case, the only thing it can do is terminate the process.

That would seem to be an explanation of how or why I found my earlier problem occurring with the commercial office "suite" (which is not any Microsoft product).
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